Ten Golden Rules: Solving the #1 Client Complaint (Full Episode)

We've built a tool that not only does some of the marketing side about keeping the clients up to date and satisfaction, checking, MPS scores, all that. But what we're really focused on is building every case, similar to what your staff does at the law firm. Our app does it automatically using reminders and tasks and tools that are built into the app. So we're helping build every case and make every client a great client. Technically, how does it function? Do you first sign a client before you get them on Quilia? Yeah, so we have our mission is from signature to disbursement. you invite them to download the app. The app goes on their phone or on a web browser if they want it. And then it's actually less crazy than you think. I mean, we got a bunch of cool AI stuff, but really we're just doing essentially time-based reminders. And if there's, if this, then that statements, meaning if something's missing, plug it in. And we tailor those out at different times so that they aren't annoyed with all the stuff they have to do. Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Whatever time you're listening to the 10 Golden Rules of Internet Marketing for Law Firms podcast, welcome aboard. I've got a great guest today, Kenny Eliason. His company, Quilia, is a legal customer communications tool. We're going to learn all about that. But first things first, Kenny's from Las Vegas, and he's been captured by the Golden Knights. And of course, those of you who've listened to me know I'm from Winnipeg, Canada. I'm a Winnipeg Jets fan. And we've played the Knights a couple of times in the playoffs. But how did a desert family become hockey fans and your son's playing hockey? How did that all come about? Man, it was crazy. I don't know if you all know the story. If you're not a hockey fan, you probably don't know the story of the Knights of how they landed in Las Vegas. But they had quite the arrival. It coincided with the tragedy of the October 2020 tragedy that we had on the Strip, which brought the whole city together. It was kind of an interesting time because the Knights had shown up two months before that. And they were a huge part of the healing process for the city. They dedicated a ton of their games to different people that lost their lives. They retired the number 58 jersey on the second game of the season, which was the number of people that passed away during that tragedy. And so they showed up just at a really big inflection point for the city. And then, of course, that same season, they went on to freaking go all the way to the Stanley Cup, which just blew the roof off the city. We were freaking out. We couldn't believe this. We've never had – okay, a little bit more backstory. We've never had a professional team. I grew up here. We've never had a professional team in any sport. And so the Knights were the first ones that were in the actual professional league of hockey. were kind of paying attention and then they went all the way. I mean, we were hook, line of sinker. My kids started playing hockey in the street every day, later playing for the Knights or for the junior gold Knights. We're obsessed now. We hang out all the time at the Knights. What do you guys, I mean, I have a theory, but what do you guys think the magic was on the ice? Like how did a expansion team go to the final? We called it our misfits, right? They were the misfits. They were the team with an expansion team. Nobody wants to be on the expansion team. They all feel like they're like tossed aside and so we had our misfits marches so cole cole cole no cole star was later anyway we had a handful of them that were just these ragtag guys england one of my favorites still on the team as a manager now anyway these guys came in with a chip on their shoulder and they wanted to friggin prove that they were good and man did they they came out guns a-blazin and went to town it was really cool and i think the the fact that the city really rallied behind them at the same time because wanted them to win it was just magic it was mad here's my theory two parts keep it quick because i know people want to talk about it is the important stuff let's go for the whole time on this but uh yeah yeah it's funny one of the podcasts i listen to when they get sidetracked they say like this is not golden knight's lunch so part one vegas paid a ton of money and then seattle like you guys paid like a billion dollars for the team and one of the things they negotiated terms in the players they could draft in the expansion draft now every team could protect basically their top two lines but what this meant was that vegas was able to draft the best third line players on every team in the nhl and pick off a couple guys who for different reasons free agents or whatever they could have a pretty decent first and second line but in the nhl and in most leagues they have a salary cut so what ends up happening is your stars eat up a lot of the money and most teams third and fourth lines are not that great but vegas literally had the best third line player on every team on their third and fourth line and so what they had was unbelievable depth not depth like you say it on paper like right legitimate second and third line players the best guy they cherry picked the best guy from every team and same thing with the defense and goal so anyways that's my theory how they they had such a good team that it wasn't just they didn't have any superstars obviously you're not gonna be able to draft and develop a guy in right in your first year but what they did get was every line you played you're playing a really good set of guys it was fun man yeah a little bit and a little bit and i didn't recall that part the story of the tragedy in the city i remember now going back and just really rallied around the team and And also, you do a phenomenal job with the live event too, right? It's really fun. We call it the best show on the strip because it is so fun the whole time you're there. It's just a big party. I mean, the pre-show is amazing, but during the show, it's amazing. Yeah, it's a ton of fun. How about the, like, now you have a football team. Do they do the same kind of entertainment package? They happened to show up at a different tragedy. Their first season was during COVID, and it was not as magical. Couldn't go to the games. I'm not a big football fan because I don't have a team. Never had a team. Been here my whole life. I don't follow that as much, but it just hasn't picked up quite as much steam. But they do take on a bunch of the showmanship that they've done with the Knights. I think they have the same producers because they do a lot of that too. Nice. Yeah, and I guess winning goes a long way. Winning goes a long way. In life, in sports. Anyway, yeah. So why don't you tell us a little bit about Quilia first, then we'll talk a little bit about your journey and how the company came about. Cool. a few years ago and give you a little bit more of the background later but we've built a tool that not only does some of the marketing side about keeping the clients up to date and satisfaction checking mps scores all that but what we're really focused on is building every case similar to what your staff does at the law firm our app does it automatically using reminders and tasks and tools that are built into the app so we're helping build every case and make every client a great client technically how does it function do you first sign a client before you get them on Quilia yeah so we have our mission is from signature to disbursement and so after signature invite them to download the app the app goes on their phone or on a web browser if they want it and then it's actually less crazy than you think i mean we got a bunch of cool ai stuff but really we're just doing essentially time-based reminders and if there's if this then that statements meaning if something's missing plug it in and we tailor those out different at different annoyed with all the stuff they have to do. So like a lot of the tools out there will send you a reminder as you go through the phases like from intake to discovery or to treatment or whatever the phases are and those are great but our app really fills in the in between those phases and so we do that we do the phase updates but in between every other day you know they're going to get a reminder that says hey come in and update us on how that appointment went or come in and update this on how your car repairs are or your wage loss claim or whatever is going on and we do that all automatically. We hear it all the time. The number one bar complaint is my lawyer doesn't get back to me. My lawyer doesn't update me on my case. So obviously this is playing in that space where now you've got an app, you can find out updates about your case on the app. You don't have to necessarily call the firm and the lawyer not get back to you. And if you do ask a question in the app, I guess that facilitates that conversation. Yeah. So that classic bar complaint I remember back when I worked at a law firm, it was the number one client back then too, 20 years ago almost now. And our old solution for that problem was client portals. Everybody's had a client portal. I've written a lot of posts about why client portals fail. And it has a lot of that, what you were talking about where clients are trying to find out what's going on all the time. But if the client portal isn't updated regularly, then it's pretty useless. Like logging, it just increases the frustration if it's not updated regularly. And so we jokingly call us the anti-portal, meaning doesn't require any additional work from the law firm. And the app is now giving them that update regularly. So now instead of them feeling like they're not communicating with the attorney enough or that the attorney is not telling them what's going on, the app really tells them what's going on all the time. Because as everybody knows that handles a personal injury case, during the treatment especially, there's not a lot going on other than going to the treatment and making sure the treatment's good. And so there's not really a lot of updates that come from the firm. that feeling of what's going on with my case and having to get updates from the firm by just telling them, hey, I need to know what's going on with the appointments. I need to know what all those things are. And now they feel like they're way more connected and know exactly what's going on with the case. So yeah, we're really curbing that number one bar complaint. That's perfect. You mentioned a couple other things I want to delve into a little bit. Yeah. First one was NPS scores. So net promoter score. Why don't I try and describe it and then And you tell me, because not everybody would be familiar with the term. I guess a company net promoter score or someone came up with the concept. You might know the history, but it doesn't really matter. But the basic concept is you all get these surveys if we go to the dentist or you go to a retail store. And it says on a scale of 0 to 10, I think is the technical NPS. On a scale of 0 to 10, what's the likelihood you would recommend this company? law firm or this digital marketing agency and the logic there is that people who are zero to four are in a pretty negative space people who are five six seven are kind of on the fence and people who are nine or ten are obviously your raving fans and there's a really significant reason why you want to know that and so the reason they ask the question that way is if someone's a nine or ten terms of retention, customer retention, which is so important. If someone's a nine or 10, they would recommend your firm and they wouldn't take a meeting with a competitor. So that's super important and super valuable. Like first someone like us, for someone like you guys, and perhaps same for many categories of law firms, but even PI, like if someone's super happy with their firm and they know exactly what's going on with their case and they're confident they're going to get fair or big payout. they're not going to entertain a call from another firm. But I'm sure if they did contact a few firms before they signed with their firm, the other firms might check in with them or put them on their newsletter list. And so along the way, they could be thinking of leaving you. So for us, it's super important. Like we want our clients to be nines or tens. So they go to a trade show and meet another digital marketing agency or someone reaches out to them, sends them an audit, and shows them how bad the results are like most people do in those audits. And statistics always can always make statistics tell the story you want. Someone's a nine or 10, they're not going to take that meeting. But the folks who are not, maybe they haven't been with us very long, or maybe the results haven't kicked in yet. And they will take a meeting with another firm that immediately puts retention at risk. And same thing for the personal injury client. And then the zeros to four, they'll say a net promoter is that those people are either they're already looking for a replacement for the law firm or the customer satisfaction tool or the digital agency. They're looking for an alternative or they've made their mind up. They're going to look for an alternative. So we do a customer survey every quarter. And obviously, if we get any even three fours and fives back, I'm definitely going to have a conversation directly with the CEO. And then 567s also aren't great. That means they would be willing to talk to a competitor of ours. So we want everyone up in the 9s and 10s. So now translate it into your tool and how NPS works. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you nailed it exactly. For these law firms, and in the olden days, you'd send out those big surveys and nobody would ever answer them. And so it made it seemingly like it was impossible to get good data out of people. But this NPS score comes along. It's one question slider, they slide zero to 10 on where they're at in that question. How likely are you to refer our firm? We send those out at strategic times throughout the case. And exactly like you said, like that's the moment for you to either jump in and fix something. If it's a low score, figure out why they're dissatisfied. See if you can help them. It's probably something simple, like maybe it's not going the way they want and you need to follow up with them. Or those nines and tens where you say, hey, can I get a testimonial? Can I get a review? You jump in and help get those people to help refer more people to you. out of that not too long ago and it's been a great addition to the app trying to encompass that whole signature disbursement really help the firms know exactly what's going on with the case and how the clients are feeling about how it's going so great is the tool only for pi or is it most commonly for pi it started in pi because that was my background but we do have well social security disability which is a kind of pi we have family law we have some estate law so we have multiple areas a lot too. Great. And approximately how many firms are using the tool? Yeah, we're approaching 50, I think. So we're working to scale up as quickly as possible. We're only been selling for a little over six months now. So it's like out of alpha into beta kind of thing. Yeah, exactly. That's great. Well, congratulations. I'd love to hear your founder's story and start back a little bit. Tell us your story and your journey and take us to the development of Quilia. Yeah, so you and I have a touch of the same past life. I had an agency for a long time before I started this, but if you rewind even further back before that, I worked at a personal law firm. I got a job because I spoke Spanish and they needed somebody to talk to the Spanish clients. I had just moved back to Vegas and I didn't have anything going. Never, ever thought I'd worked at a law firm. Took the job because I needed money and ended up loving the job. One of my favorite parts of the job was working with the people and especially the Spanish clientele. It was a little bit different just because they really couldn't do it without us. You know, there was a real need for the translation services that made it so they could accomplish the finishing a case, but even non-Spanish speakers, I mean, it's a complicated process. People don't know what's going on. I was in the boat of before that attorneys were the bad guys, but quickly realized, oh man, the insurance companies are kind of sticking it to a lot of people. And if we're So anyway, I spent almost 10 years there. Went from receptionist, essentially, to case manager, to office manager. We did IT stuff. I was the computer guy. So I helped everybody get the computers online. And then we transitioned to, we were paper files to start. We transitioned to two different case management softwares before cloud existed. So that involved giant server racks and everything else. It was crazy, crazy stuff. and then eventually after doing all that I was talking with the attorneys and they said hey why don't you go to law school it's like man I never ever ever thought I'd go to law school my dad's a carpet layer like that's we don't we don't professional degree around here I had just graduated from UNLV here and it one thing led to another I applied I could do my LSAT got in and I went to law school which was a fun fun time how am I doing so far is this that's great no I I love it. It's such a great story. Well, so I thought I was going to do great in law school too. It was going to be a good time after I can get into the weeds, which may be relevant because I did not know, like I said, nobody knew in my family how professional degrees worked, how law school worked. So I chose a school. I chose California Western down in San Diego. I went for the first year and I went, I was going to roll straight into the summer semester and just graduate in two and a half years. and I got two months into the summer semester and I got a phone call that said, Hey, you've been excused from law school. I'm like, wait, what? So they dismissed me. Turns out I didn't know about the cut rate at law schools in order to keep bar passage rates up. Most schools cut the bottom 2%. I don't know if you've heard that. It's a really small number, like out of a hundred kids to go home and they're the kids that never came. Everybody else is still there. But at my school, I happened to choose a school that cut the bottom third because they were having a hard time keeping their bar passage rates up so i got the boot with and and it's all on a curve so it's just line them up and cut the bottom third off so i had i had a high c i had a 79 percent final grade and got the boot so back to the streets with me which is actually i mean the story of my life is failure i got a bunch of cool tell your stories but that was another stepping stone i came home went and worked at the law firm for a little while didn't want to be a case manager for the rest of my life and said, you know what, I'm also good at tech. So I went off and became a developer and built a bunch of websites and ran a marketing and development agency for a decade after that. And that's where both my worlds eventually collide, tech and law, to make what is now Quilia. So that's how we get me here. And what was the inception? What did you see that led you to create this product? Yeah. So I spent almost a year interviewing personal injury attorneys. I knew PI really well. Like I said, when I built those case management systems, I knew all the steps. We did all the tasks and the workflows and everything. So I knew it really well. But what I didn't know is if everybody else did it the same way I did. And so I spent a lot of time interviewing almost a hundred people over the course of a year and just asking them, I called it a research project because it really was. I set it up going, hey, tell me about your day. What do you listen to on the drive-in? What's the first thing you do when you get to the office? What's the most important thing you do every day? And I asked these PI guys this over and over and over again, just to kind of develop patterns about their work lives. And we set out originally to build a case management tool. And I quickly, after demoing all the PI case managements out there, decided they're way too far ahead of us. It would cost a gajillion dollars and it's the time to catch up. And so pivoted off that real quick. And after I was doing these interviews, six different ideas, I was kind of getting to the end of my rope. And I was out of my own ideas, but I was going through the motions doing these interviews. And one of the guys I was interviewing said, you know what, Kenny, let me tell you about my favorite client I've ever had. Tell me about your favorite client. He said, oh, man, this guy, he would text me before and after appointments and just let me know what was going on. but he just texts me all the time. And then at the end of the treatment, he showed up in my office with a spreadsheet of every visit he'd ever done, what they did at that visit and how much they charged. And he's like, I basically printed that off and submitted it to the insurance company. It was fantastic. Like, dang, I don't remember ever having one of those clients. They're probably out there, but there's not that many. And I said, well, tell me about your least favorite client. And he did one of those least favorite client, man. I got a lot of least favorite clients. Let me tell you, they're the ones that call all the time or don't call ever. They disappear for weeks at a time. They don't do what the doctor wants them to do. They miss appointments, on and on and on. All right, this is a problem I can relate to. And then I went back and did a bunch more interviews and I asked those two same questions. Tell me about your favorite client. Tell me about your least favorite client. All of a sudden we started seeing this pattern of clients. We all know them. So I said, man, what if instead of helping the attorneys with software, which was my original six ideas, what if instead of building them a tool, I built the clients a tool that helped the attorneys do their job better, making everything better? I mean, the clients are the cases. So that's where the genesis came. We started off, we were actually called Record for a long time. And there was a lot of confusion about what that name meant. And we just recently rebranded to Quilia after a long, extensive name search. So that's our backstory. Well, congratulations. I love it. You guys super succeed. Yeah, thanks. You and I both have an interesting perspective. We sort of consult with clients, and we both earned a couple great hairs. So I'm sure, and having talked to you before, you don't just drop your product and leave. You spend a lot of time talking to these guys. So what's a couple things that you see that law firms could be doing better? Yeah, efficiency is a big deal. and lots of times we forget how efficient we can be just because we're used to the old ways and with technology and everything that's changed. I mean, COVID was a big kick for efficiencies because everybody had to figure out how to use technology in their firms. That's still ongoing. And so as we come in and talk to people, we're like, we want to have our tools and efficiency tool at the end of the day, we're making everybody's lives easier. Iron Man's my favorite superhero because he's just a normal guy that uses technology to be better. It's like, man, if we can be more efficient using technology, then everything saved is higher. The money made is higher. Like everything, the satisfaction is higher. And so if people would just pay attention every once in a while, maybe it's a checklist on your monthly calendar that says, Hey, how can I improve efficiencies around here? I think that would make a big difference. Try to help where we can, you know, as we're consulting these people, if we see areas they can improve, whether it's with our tool or other tools, and we try to make that known to them so that they can make those jumps, make those improvements. That's great. And how about for the very large successful firm like a firm that's already pretty systematized they're maybe running eos or different operating system what's kind of an advanced tip you would share an advanced tip for the large firm the large firms that we work with and there's a couple they are they're the hardest to move and so when you have a new process or have a new system because it's so big and so detailed, it makes it hard to impact change. And I think at a high level, there has to be a, a idea of improvement that happens even at the top. And that has to trickle down throughout the team and a leader in a firm that wants to make everything better constantly. That's always looking for a way to do something better. Well, that, that same mentality will flow down through the ranks. And so at that, at those bigger organizations, yeah, you can implement long lists of here's how we're going to change this system or change that system. But without that mentality shift at the top, then it makes it a little bit trickier. So having a positive attitude towards improvement and change would make a big difference in those large firms. Fantastic. What's your why? What gets you up in the morning? What makes your day, week, or month? What makes you faster? Aside from the Vegas Golden Knights. Aside from the Knights, I am a big, efficient, I really do revolve everything I do around becoming more efficient. And so, technology user my ultimate memory of when i learned that this was a big part about me was i was helping at the law firm i was helping one of the attorneys and he said hey can you come in here fix my computer for me i was like yeah what do you need he said okay i got a new mouse on my keyboard on my mouse here and right now every time i want to click something i want to open something on my computer i have to double click it said i want it to be a single click and i was like oh okay so i fixed it turned it to single click and he goes man you just saved seconds of my life and so ever My running joke is like, man, I can spend five minutes doing something and making it a little more efficient. Then that's a win. That's a net positive over the lifetime of my work. And so everything we're doing is like, how can we make that specific job a little bit easier for our clients? They'll maybe come back to us with feedback because we're new and small. We can make adjustments on the fly. So where they're like, hey, this is great, but it could be a little bit better. It's like, oh, you know what? Yes. And then my brain shifts into how can I make this more efficient for everybody, not just for this one person. And that's where our processes go into place and we make cool new tools inside of the app and everything else. I get excited when I get to make something more efficient, especially if it's involving technology. My poor wife, everything's tech in my house, and I'm always trying to make things more efficient. She's like, now how do I turn the lights on? You just say it, or just clap, whatever it might be. But yeah, efficiency. Efficiency is my goal. Yeah. Clap and see if I can turn your light on. Yeah. What are some efficiency tips, maybe for lawyers or maybe for the rest of us? What are two or three things that the common man should be doing for efficiency? Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm a list maker, but I do either mentally or actually write down things where a lot of my ideas come while I'm driving. And so I want to I can't do them at that moment. So I just make sure to have them jotted down or somewhere where I can refer back to them, because when I can sit down and just plug through my list, man, I get really, really efficient. It's easier for me to stay on task. sometimes I'll be stuck on a bigger task. Like even just yesterday, I was fixing a new form on our site and it was giving me, man, it was giving me a runaround. I'd fix one thing and then another thing would break and I'd have to go back and forth between these things. And finally I just stopped and was like, okay, what am I trying to accomplish with this dang form? I wrote down the list. I needed to submit. I needed to add a thing. I needed to do these five things. Like, all right, I'm going to focus on them one at a time. And sure enough, after I made the list, I was able to focus in and get that actually finished and brought across the finish line. So, so making lists is really helpful for me. I'm also always looking at new stuff. I'm a, what do they call it? Super user of things. I am the guy that when I get my new phone, I click on every single setting because I want to know all of the possibilities that are there. So just knowing what I have in front of me already is a big way that I make more efficient progress. I'm one of those, I'm one of those old day guys that's at the line for the iPhone outside the You work out all the warts for the rest of us. Thank you. That's me. I'm an early adopter, but I don't have to be the first guy with the new aqua. I like people like you to suffer through the few quirk for a couple months. It used to be a lot more. Now it seems like they go from 15 to 16 without many warts at all. It's true. It's true. It's getting better. That is for sure. That's great. We're kind of into the quick one-liners. We kind of snuck right in there. for years but i don't know if you have something to add on this specific question are there any apps or techniques you use for personal productivity maybe i'll give you a technical question because you said like you write things down and i'm literally holding up a napkin yeah things down for my call today yeah add somewhere and i have a book somewhere but how do you keep that organized where all of your lists are all in one place and have the discipline and to use those lists. I have gone through a bazillion different apps on my phone to help track what it is. And you know what I always come back to at the end of the day? The Simple Simple Notes app. It is just the most efficient way for me to quickly have something at my fingertips. Luckily, it syncs with all my devices too, so I can easily pull it up on anything that I'm working on. Easily add to it. I don't even use the Reminders app necessarily. I'll use the Reminders for something if I need to time-based or location-based something. little notes tasks. If I went back through my notes app, I would have a thousand different notes with the stuff that I need to get done. But yeah, I don't do paper much, so I don't have notepads, although that's a popular one. But I usually just pull out the phone or the computer and write it down inside the notes app. That's my go-to. Do you have a personal wellness and fitness routine? I do. So I started this whole thing, this whole company. I would not say I was the most healthy person, I was fine. I wasn't like overly unhealthy, but I didn't have a real regime at all. And part of my focus became if I'm going to be able to do all this stuff that I need to do, work the long hours, the time traveling, do all that stuff. It's like, man, I got to make sure my health is somewhere in the middle. So I was not a morning person as a typical developer. I would be up all night devving and building stuff until the wee hours and then sleep for four or five hours and then wake up at seven and go to work. I started this, I shifted and now I go to bed at like one and wake up at five 30, go to the gym, I use a workout app, but I can't remember the name of it. It's a really cool AI based workout app that came out a couple of years ago. It does some great workouts for me. I spend 30 minutes or so there, come home, have four kids. So they keep me running around for the rest of the day. And then I try to eat healthy ish. I do keto. I go on and off keto a lot. I love keto. It's been a great, great help for me. So I've tried to focus on the health a little bit more since we've gotten to into this whole this whole journey because man well four kids sounds like a fitness app itself yeah yeah between hockey soccer volleyball what else are they doing piano all the things it's a runaround for sure best business books so my favorite book it's a little old now i can't believe it's getting old but it's one i've aside from efficiency my second favorite thing is execution getting stuff done so make the list and then actually do the list and there's a book Fantastic read. It's all about just getting stuff done. I have a whole bookshelf in there of other favorites that come to mind. The Ultimate Sales Machine, Spin, the selling book. Those are some recent favorites because I'm not a salesman in my nature. That's a very different thing for me. I can talk to people fine, but I don't like selling. So I've had to learn those things. Those have been great books. That's the amazing thing when you start a business. You think you know your business, but you don't realize that you have to learn all these other things about business. Yeah, it's been a lot. I'm with you on the sales journey too. What blogs, podcasts, or YouTubes do you subscribe to? And when that new one hits your feed, do you immediately stop everything else and go with? Like many, and I think you and I even talked about this at some point. pod fan. Those guys have stuck to me. That's probably the only one I'll like, oh, crap. It's out. I've got to watch it in the moment. They've got a lot of vibe. Jason Calacanis and David Sachs and Chumeth. The all-in podcast. I always love to tell the story because Jason says he's got the number one podcast in the world. I think it's number one on a business list or something. I interviewed Jason Calacanis before he even had a podcast. that's my little blogging days that's awesome that's awesome he's he's a spicy character now the number two podcaster in the world might be gary vaynerchuk and i also interviewed gary when he worked his dad's wine store oh there you go gary v on social media and by the way if you're listening to this podcast and obviously you are and you want to hear some of the historical ones we go back to like 08 or 09 and there's some great listen to the really cool foundation story story of Jason Galgenis or Gary Vaynerchuk or the founder of Pandora. There's some great ones. Other than that, I'm a car hobbyist. I have a Jeep and work on it and do all that stuff. I follow Matt's Off-Road Recovery and Fab Rats and some car guys that I keep tabs on. How about the legal genre? What other legal podcasts do you listen to? Legal podcasts I listen to other than yours, of course. many honestly bourbon approved i listen to those with bob simon yeah we had bob on recently that's a great one to go back yeah yeah yeah bob's good bob's good there's a couple more of the i can't think of the names right now but there's a couple more i catch every you'll send them to me we'll put them in the show notes there you go last couple questions what's a great introduction for you guys like who should be using quileo yeah any especially personal injury firms if you're using experience, then this is the number one way to get it done. It also improves the attorney's experience by way of helping the clients do everything they're supposed to do. So if you're focused on client service and client communication, then come see us. And last one, this is really easy. Where can people get in touch with you? I am at Las Vegas. Come see me. No, Quilia.com, Q-U-I-L-I-A.com and available anytime you want. Phone number 702-337-3127. And I will talk nights. apps and tech, whatever you want. Well, look, all the best. I mean, I hope the Golden Knights have a really, really great season. I hope the Western Conference Final when the Jets get their revenge from a couple years ago. That's right. And best of success with Quilia. Thank you very much for doing this. Hey, thanks, Jay. Appreciate it. Good luck to you, too, man. Thank you for listening to the 10 Golden Rules of Internet Marketing for Law Firms podcast. Please send questions and comments to podcast at 10goldenrules.com. That is podcast at T-E-N-goldenrules.com.